The Bookmonger Society

Alchemised
===

[00:00:00] Andrea: Leah? Yes. Andrea. Andrea, I'm gonna give you five words to describe how you feel about alchemized. First impressions.

[00:00:11] Leah: Shit. Just got way creepier. Okay. Here's you,

[00:00:18] Andrea: here's mine. Uh, where? W what? Who, huh? And how. Okay. I am confused. Bottom line. So let's get into it. Our first segment is bookmarked where we're gonna talk about where we're at and where we're at emotionally and in the actual book.

[00:00:44] Andrea: And a little bit of this is, we just finished Manacled. Yep. And now we're into alchemized. And as I said, I have zero expectations, but I know you came in with lots of expectations. So how are you feeling?

[00:00:58] Leah: I am feeling [00:01:00] good about it. So yes. I, I mean, I love Manacled. Yes. Everyone knows there's no surprise. I adore Manacled.

[00:01:08] Leah: So I went into, into this thinking, you know, "It will be good no matter what. I may not like it more than Manacled. Right? Yeah. I might, but I might not. And that's fine, 'cause we still have Manacled ."

[00:01:19] Andrea: Right.

[00:01:21] Leah: Overall, I, I'm not as emotionally gripped as I was at this point in manifold. Yeah. There is a lot more world building and I actually like the world building.

[00:01:34] Leah: I know. We're gonna dive into that. Yeah. More. But because of that, yeah. It's starting off a little, a little slower. Not quite as emotionally nuanced because there's so much more world building that has to be done ahead of time. So I like it. So I am currently on chapter 40, which is in kind of the middle of part two.

[00:01:55] Leah: Okay. So, um, I'm further than you, but I haven't finished it yet, so I can't, [00:02:00] which says a lot. 'cause you finished Manacled in two days. Yes. And it's about the same size I slammed through that book,

[00:02:05] Andrea: so yeah.

[00:02:06] Leah: So yes, that does say something. So I, I don't have my final thoughts around it yet. Um, so yes, first impressions.

[00:02:14] Leah: I like it. I'm not as enthralled as I was with Manifold.

[00:02:17] Andrea: Okay. Okay. And Leah told me to read through chapter seven, so that's what I did. 'cause I'm a rule follower and here it is. I'm reading the actual like book book. So I'm like that far on this thing. And um, yeah. And I have, I have lots of thoughts, but before we get into the thoughts.

[00:02:37] Andrea: Do you wanna do the warning? Yep.

[00:02:39] Leah: Always gotta have a warning. So just like our episodes with manifold, these themes are going to be dark, some of them even darker actually, than in manifold, which was a little shocking to me. Actually. Please check the trigger warnings. Please be aware of any little listening ears that [00:03:00] may be around you because our language, uh, the content of this podcast and themes that we'll be talking through may not be appropriate for little listening ears.

[00:03:09] Andrea: Okay, the last thing that I'll say about the warning is that there will be spoilers Yes. In this. I actually don't believe in a world of no spoilers. I see that all the time. Don't worry, we won't be spoil. No, I'm a spoiler. Okay. We, this is a podcast for people who want to go deep on this material. So like, if you haven't read it, go read it.

[00:03:30] Andrea: Yeah, or just expect us to explain to you what we think, but like

[00:03:34] Leah: this is not a spoiler free zone. If you're listening to a podcast about a book, there will be spoilers about said book in the podcast,

[00:03:41] Andrea: or here's a

[00:03:42] Leah: hot

[00:03:42] Andrea: take. Probably not a very good podcast because you're gonna be talking about things like generally, that's not fun.

[00:03:47] Andrea: The book, monger Society is a podcast for sci-fi fantasy readers who get too attached to fictional characters and writers who think way too hard, hosted by Andrea and Leah. It's a chaotic, craft focused and [00:04:00] emotionally unregulated conversation about the books we use to escape reality. Take a seat and welcome to the Society, the book Monger Society.

[00:04:11] Andrea: Typically we have started with bookmarked and then we go right into in the margins. But since this book is basically the same story mm-hmm. Some nuances, but mostly the same overarching concept as Manacled and a lot of the same characters, but they have different names. Mm-hmm. And different nuance. Of course.

[00:04:30] Andrea: I figured we would start at Canon who dat. Okay. Because there's no canon who dat because you no longer have the advantage of having read Harry Potter. Yes. That you have to explain all of these things to me that I'm like, what does that mean? Um, and so I figured we could do, who was the character in Manna Cult and who is there?

[00:04:51] Andrea: Essentially simile. Yeah. Who's the adjacent character in Alchemist? Yeah, that's a smart way to say it. And uh, we can, to keep this a little bit more interesting [00:05:00] even, I wanna do a, like, who wore it better? Ooh. Theme here. I like that. Yeah. That'll be fun. Okay. Okay, so let's start with our main girl, Hermione Granger.

[00:05:08] Andrea: Her name in this book is Helena Marino. Um, I It's gotta be Hermione for me. Same. Yeah. Oh, same. Yeah. Well, we're gonna get into just Yeah. How much I longed for Harmione's voice in this book and why. It's part of the reason that I'm not totally enjoying it that much, but Hermione for me all the way.

[00:05:30] Leah: Yeah.

[00:05:30] Leah: She had just had like this cutting sarcasm that was, yeah. And just she was so, yeah.

[00:05:37] Andrea: I literally have goosebumps. I feel like I, I like miss my friend, almost like there is a visceral affection that I didn't really realize I had until I was reading this book for Hermione. Really? Like, I, I really loved her voice and I loved spending a thousand pages with her.

[00:05:54] Andrea: And I, I'm not in that same mental place. Yeah. With he, Helena. Helena. [00:06:00] Do you think it's Helena or Helena? I think it's Helena. Okay. I have no idea. Okay. So next up is my boy Draco, who I adore. Obviously a big Draco apologist over here. Captain of the Draco fan club and captain President. Fan clubs have presidents.

[00:06:16] Andrea: Teams have captains. Anyways, whatever the leadership role is where I get to advocate for Draco. I'm going to do that. So Draco versus Kane Farrin, uh, we're still using the term High re because that was not in Harry Potter. So. Thoughts? Who do you like better?

[00:06:34] Leah: I think Kane and Draco are more similar to me in these stories than Hermin and Helena are.

[00:06:41] Leah: But I still gotta go. Draco.

[00:06:43] Andrea: Yeah. I don't know shit about Kane where I'm at. Like I have no vibe for him. Right. No feeling for him whatsoever. I would say I'm a, his dialogue doesn't feel as cutting to me. I have only seen him in, I think, two [00:07:00] chapters at this point. Maybe three. Okay. So I, I, it's hard, and I'll say this kind of to your point from the very top I, everything that I really love about Manifold, it's gonna be really hard, I think, right?

[00:07:12] Andrea: Yeah. For me to maintain, uh, like, oh, I actually like that better. So Draco's dialogue to me is one of my favorite things about Yes. Manifold. And so. For this to match that I think is gonna be pretty hard, but it's not doing it yet, I would say where I'm at. So I'm, I'm Draco Malfoy all the way. Yes. I also, so there's this, this concept I, I wager just from the little bit that I know that Kane was not a bully to Helena.

[00:07:43] Andrea: I'm just, this is not wild speculation time. But I would wildly speculate that he wasn't a bully, just 'cause she doesn't have that visceral reaction that Hermione had to Draco. Mm-hmm. And I think that one of the critiques that people have about Manacled is that [00:08:00] he does things that they consider, Draco does things in that book that people consider.

[00:08:05] Andrea: Totally. I like. Irredeemable And one of those things is that he bullies Hermione in high school, which I would say like, wow, it must be amazing to have no faults of all of your own. Right? Like, I kind of like that. Like okay, he was a bully in high school. Hey, turns out every, like everybody who is so mad like that mm-hmm.

[00:08:25] Andrea: And mean to other people, they probably have shit going on. Yeah. In their life. And I actually think that that adds to him. I hope that Kane isn't this just like good guy, honestly. Like I hope he's got like some guy. Okay, good. Alright. But anyways, I'm a Draco fan obviously. Okay. So let's do it.

[00:08:45] Leah: Alright, so next we have on the list.

[00:08:47] Leah: So Luke, hold fast. Mm-hmm. Is the Harry Potter character. What are your thoughts about them so far? So

[00:08:55] Andrea: I like that he's a nepo baby. I think it works. I, I [00:09:00] really like that he's a nepo baby. I like that his father is essentially the Dumbledore Yeah. Character. I think that's more intriguing as a spark, that that sparks the war.

[00:09:12] Andrea: That as a match that sparks, what the fuck am I saying here? As a catalyst. As a catalyst for the war. Uh, I like that. I think that's a lot more interesting. And it's more meaningful 'cause it's his father.

[00:09:25] Leah: Mm-hmm. So I like that. Yeah. I think it works in this context.

[00:09:28] Leah: I didn't think they had to have the same relationship that they had in Manifold. So this setup I think is honestly easier from a world building perspective. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I concur. I think it works.

[00:09:39] Andrea: Uh, you wanna talk dark Lord Morrow? Is that how you pronounce it? Morro Morrow is the high Necro answer instead of the dark Lord.

[00:09:53] Andrea: I actually

[00:09:54] Leah: prefer Moreau over Voldemort thus far. Okay. So I'm not done [00:10:00] with the book obviously. Yeah. So I hold my opinion until the end, but as of right now. I find him more, both, more interestingly grotesque. Yeah. And, um, his magic is more interesting.

[00:10:15] Andrea: Okay. I, I don't have a lot of feelings 'cause I haven't seen a ton of him and his description as this really huge being was a little bit confusing to me.

[00:10:30] Andrea: And I don't understand his magic really. So I can't say that. I think it's more interesting. So I have, I'm having a hard time envisioning him at this point, so I'd have to go with Voldemort just 'cause like, I have a very clear idea in my mind of who he is. So I'm gonna go Vold more. Okay. On who wore evil best.

[00:10:50] Leah: Our, our first disagreement. Yeah. There you go. Kick it off. Okay. Sh and Snap. I love sh He's

[00:10:58] Andrea: so cool, right? Yes.

[00:10:59] Leah: [00:11:00] Yes. I'm excited to get to unpack more of his story as we go through, because even where I am in part two, I still don't fully understand his backstory yet. Okay. And so, but we're getting to peel the layers and I'm like, Ooh, that's interesting. Yeah. So, yes, I'm excited.

[00:11:15] Andrea: And then I'm not sure, since you're further along than me, is Dole h Bennett?

[00:11:19] Andrea: Yes. Okay. Uh, and so. Would you, do we meet Bennett? Not yet. Okay. Okay, so last time, just in case you haven't listened to all of our episodes, Leah and I really wanted to meet Dole. Ha. So I'm, I am eagerly looking forward to maybe getting to meet Bennett.

[00:11:37] Leah: I don't know yet, so, TB, D. Okay. All right. Okay. Here's a big one.

[00:11:42] Leah: Aurelia or

[00:11:44] Andrea: Astoria. Dude, I don't know. I, I think I prefer Astoria and I don't have a good reason. It's just the vibe, I [00:12:00] guess. Yeah. I think the, the hard thing for me, I, I guess the, the thing that I like better about Aurelia is that she's so obviously like, full of shit, basically, you know, like, Ooh, I'm gonna hurt you.

[00:12:14] Andrea: But there's something about that that feels even more cartoonish to me. Yeah. In a, like, not, again, you know, that my, my desire for that Astoria character mm-hmm. Is to be like evil and devious. Mm-hmm. To a degree that's like, I don't know why I want her to be perverted. I just do, I don't know why. That's how I want her evil represented, but that neither one of them are in that place for me.

[00:12:40] Andrea: Makes them kind of the same. But I, I guess I do, I don't know why I prefer Astoria. I really don't, but that's where I'm at. Okay.

[00:12:49] Leah: I, okay. What I find interesting, they're a tie for me ultimately, but when we are very first introduced to Aurelia, when you see her whole outfit and the [00:13:00] jewelry Yeah. And the claws and the cane, and you're like, oh, she's gonna be cooler.

[00:13:03] Leah: Right. Just based on like Yeah. Like outfits and vibes alone. Right. And then she speaks and you're like, oh, you're just a fucking brat. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that was hard. However, yeah. Okay. Remember the point that I made early on in the season where I actually felt bad for a story or Yes. For mm-hmm.

[00:13:23] Leah: You know, all the reasons that I described. Like she was, she did all the right things based on how she was raised. Anyways, so Aurelia actually has this moment where she kind of diatribes about this, and I was like, yeah. I get it. Like I understand why you're angry and why you're vengeful, you're still a bitch.

[00:13:44] Leah: Yeah. But I get it. Yeah.

[00:13:46] Andrea: Uh, last but not least, Stroud is Stroud. She gets to stay because she doesn't exist in Harry Potter. Harry Potter. So, yeah. And I actually even already, this is one of my points, I'm gonna give you a little preview. I [00:14:00] like her more actually. I like all, not like as in I find her a redeeming lovely human being, but as a character, I fuck with these bad guys.

[00:14:10] Andrea: I think the bad guys in this book so far are way more compelling mm-hmm. Than they were in Manacled. I agree. So my

[00:14:21] Leah: Stroud for me in, in Manacled was honestly worse than Voldemort. I was like, she is pretending to be like this savior. Yeah. When really she's supporting this whole program, like she's. Just evil in my book.

[00:14:39] Leah: However, in this story, I do find her compelling when you consider, and I know we're gonna unpack this as we go in, but all of the sociopolitical reasons that she chose the side that she did, we'll unpack more as we go through, but I do find her character more compelling Yeah.

[00:14:55] Andrea: Than I did in manifold. Yeah.

[00:14:56] Andrea: Into the margins. And I didn't write in [00:15:00] the actual margins, but I do have all of these little things, so I'm gonna read from the manuscript sometimes. Uh, but I'm, I, it was too much to like put this all on my post-it notes, so I'm not gonna do that. Point number one, there is a lot less crying, I don't think.

[00:15:15] Andrea: Helena, are we saying Helena or Helena? God dammit. Helena. Right? Helena. Helena. We're doing Helen. Uh, so I have been, I gotta get it in

[00:15:23] Leah: my brain. I've also been listening to the audio book. Oh, okay. 'cause there were certain words that I was like, how are we pronouncing this? Oh, nice. I realized that in my head I was pronouncing the country wrong.

[00:15:32] Leah: So in my head I was, uh, pronouncing it, um, Palladia. Okay. But it's actually at least in the audiobook pronounced Paia. And I was like, oh, oh, that took me a while to like

[00:15:43] Andrea: re put it in there and rewrite in my brain. So. Helena. Helena. Helena. I got it. I'm gonna do it. Okay. So there is a lot less crying. I don't think Helena cries even once.

[00:15:57] Andrea: I don't think that's how she's do. Do you recall a cry in the [00:16:00] first seven chapters? I don't think there's a tear. That's she. I think so. And it's just so interesting 'cause all Hermione did was cry and then it was the whole component of the manacles repressed her. You know, you had a whole point about how it's all she can do, and now there's just none.

[00:16:15] Andrea: And I found that odd, like I, I, I didn't actually. Mind all of her, my knees crying and I thought that Senline, you did a really good job not making it feel really obnoxious. Mm-hmm. And then I, I kind of missed a little bit. I kind of missed it '

[00:16:40] Leah: cause I distinctly remember like, we get it. She's sad. Move on. I did.

[00:16:45] Leah: I remember this sentiment.

[00:16:46] Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. But I kind, I could have used some cries. She should be a little upset.

[00:16:52] Leah: Yeah. Okay. Maybe ought here. I feel like we need to go back and kind of compare like, did, did she cry up to this point [00:17:00] in the story? 'cause I actually remember a lot more of her tears towards like the end of part one.

[00:17:04] Leah: Okay. So she's gonna cry. Good. And then in part, part three a lot.

[00:17:08] Andrea: I don't remember like maybe, but okay. So that's not so bad then. Or not, not so bad, but like. That's interesting. Then if it's like maybe there was feedback she needs to do something besides cry, maybe No. Maybe hold the crying for the really cry parts.

[00:17:23] Andrea: Maybe that's what's happening. That would be interesting.

[00:17:26] Leah: Yeah. I mean, but I have finished part one. Yeah. And there was no crying, so Oh, oh, oh, oh, okay. So like there was still like less crying overall. And I, I have to, I didn't mind it in Manacle, but I can't say that I missed it. Yeah. Either there are other things that I missed.

[00:17:42] Leah: Yeah. I, I feel fairly neutral actually about the crying. Okay. Okay. What did you miss? Like you mentioned earlier, I miss a lot of her inner dialogue. I miss her. Like really trying to figure it out. Trying to unpack why. Yeah. You know, um, what [00:18:00] murrow's, um, plans are, what his motivations are, trying to figure out what, um, Kane's motivations are, or Draco's mo, you know what I mean?

[00:18:08] Leah: Yeah. Draco's motivations are. Um, I was missing a little bit of that Yeah. In the story. Um, and I know we're gonna get into, into to some of this, but she didn't feel as trapped in this story

[00:18:27] Andrea: mm-hmm.

[00:18:27] Leah: As Hermione did. Yeah. And I feel like that feeling of being so trapped forced her to work through things that Helena hasn't yet.

[00:18:36] Andrea: Yeah. Okay. We're gonna talk about, 'cause I think a lot of that is in the way that this is written. Mm-hmm. Which we're gonna cover in the writer's desk. Okay. So we're gonna put a pin in it. It's gonna be really, I'm gonna do something cool there graphically. I do love your graphics. Oh, thanks. The second thing that I was thinking as I was reading through this [00:19:00] is that I do like the undertones that the hold fasts are just, oh, aren't they godlike?

[00:19:09] Andrea: Oh my goodness. They're just the most perfect people ever. And Luke hold fest, my gosh. If Helena could have little hearts slang out of her eyes, they would be, she would just be a little cartoon character. And she just thinks Luke Fest has never done anything wrong. That man is a saint. He's perfect. He loves everyone equally, and there's just no fucking way.

[00:19:34] Andrea: You know, I love that, like unwavering devotion that is so clearly. An adolescent sort of miss that's going to be so delicious to watch her figure out. Ah,

[00:19:47] Leah: see I had the opposite reaction. I mean, I, I understand it from a literary arc perspective. Like, I understand what is happening. I understand what they're doing with this.[00:20:00]

[00:20:01] Leah: Yeah. With the Luke worship, I found it so cringey and off-putting. I was like,

[00:20:07] Andrea: Ugh. Immediately like, yeah, stop it. So if I could break open the book here. Um, this is also part of what I like so much about Stroud. So Stroud has this line on page 1 0 6, if you'd like to read along. So this is where they realized that Helena has been sterilized.

[00:20:24] Andrea: Mm-hmm. And Stroud says, and of course you agreed because you thought they'd accept what you are, if you only reduced yourself enough. And I was like, girl. Hmm. Yes, that's

[00:20:35] Leah: right. That's a dope fucking line. And I loved Strouds and she has several of those, so you're gonna get more Yeah. You have more to look forward to.

[00:20:43] Leah: But I love Stroud's commentary on the hold fast. And honestly, the, the whole resistance in general, it really creates a more well-rounded view that we're just not getting from Helena. And I think the reason it was off-putting to me is because even [00:21:00] in Manifold, even though Hermione is loyal to Harry, loves him, all of these things, she was still willing to recognize his faults and his weaknesses.

[00:21:07] Leah: Yeah. And just like be loyal to him anyway. Yeah. And that was not the case with Helena. Yeah. And so I love Stroud calling out all of the bullshit, even though she's still a villain. Yeah. I, I loved it.

[00:21:19] Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, I actually, 'cause, you know, I wanted a larger arc mm-hmm. For. Hermione in general. So I, there you go.

[00:21:29] Andrea: I don't mind that she starts as this really doey mm-hmm. Infatuated person who thinks that her team can do no wrong. I don't mind that at all. 'cause it's like, it gives you something to Sure. Realize and then grow as a character. So I, I, I was into it. And then my, my third point is, where the fuck are they, I can't figure out if this is supposed to be an alternative earth, because there's this one point where the, I, I didn't think so.

[00:21:58] Andrea: I didn't come in here thinking that [00:22:00] this was gonna be Earth, but then it's confusing when there's this whole section that talks about which metals are associated to which planets, and they're all the planets in our solar system, so it's Jupiter and Mars. And I was like, well, what? Like, huh? Where, where are we?

[00:22:20] Leah: I don't know. Because there are two moons, so it's not that I picked up on that too, and so then I was like, so it's not the earth that we know, but there's still, so yeah, I'm just going like parallel universe of earth. That's what I'm going with.

[00:22:33] Andrea: Okay. Okay. Uh, my fourth point is I have not seen any Handmaids yet.

[00:22:41] Andrea: I don't know if there are going to be, you will ruin it for me, I'm sure. Um, probably, but, uh, I think the downside of that is two things. One, to your point about how, Hermione feels more trapped than Helena is, it really ratchets [00:23:00] up the horror of the situation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Real effectively, it's just so bad that yeah, not only your mind is being penetrated, but your body and your soul and everything is crushing you.

[00:23:14] Andrea: And then I think the second thing that is missing. The, the rape happens in the handmade component of manifold so quick. Yeah. Really By chapter six, it's page like 50 something. It happens so fast that it gives you your first real challenge of the way that Draco is gonna show up and how he's gonna execute on his duties.

[00:23:36] Andrea: Mm-hmm. And it gives you your first hint that he doesn't like. Being evil. But yeah, he has some hard choices to make. I'm 111 pages in and even when he's doing his mind poking, I even feel like the mind poking isn't as gruesome as it was for me in Manacled. I feel like it's LaMer. Really? Yes.

[00:23:59] Leah: I actually, [00:24:00] I've, I thought it was really interesting the parallels between rape and the transference.

[00:24:06] Leah: I think that's what it's called here, right? Transference, the way that he comes behind her, the way that she feels totally and completely violated and consumed. I, I saw the parallels between the rape and the mind poking, as you call it, more so than I even did in manifold, which I thought was really interesting.

[00:24:27] Leah: Second point is there actually is a Handmaid's program. Um, it just comes late to the party, so, oh, get ready.

[00:24:34] Andrea: Okay. Will do. Well, I got that there was a Handmaid's program, but that Helena wasn't in it.

[00:24:40] Leah: Yeah. But then if you find a way to ratchet

[00:24:42] Andrea: up the stakes, where is it gonna go? Yeah. I mean, you know, you gotta do something.

[00:24:47] Andrea: Okay. My next point is that the magic system in this is different, and that's gonna be one of the points that we talk about in the writer's desk. Mm-hmm. But. One of the components that I have not seen yet [00:25:00] in, and you brought this up in one of the previous episodes, that there's not really going to be teleportation.

[00:25:05] Andrea: Mm-hmm. One of the things that Sland used said in one of their interviews was that that was one of the hardest things to work around or to change in this mm-hmm. Version. And without Draco's ability to teleport and be constantly in the front of Harmione's mind, this whole concept about her committing suicide didn't quite make sense to me in like lots of ways, and I felt like.

[00:25:32] Andrea: Even that idea of whether this character would wanna commit suicide, I, I guess to me it would've been better to just avoid it. 'cause I don't, I don't think you can compellingly close off and wall off all of the options convincingly enough for a reader to be like, you literally can't find us. She even brings it up like there's no screw and any furnitures I can take, like yes, there is.

[00:25:54] Andrea: Like there, come on. Yes there is. Whereas in Manna called the, [00:26:00] she literally can't touch a fire poker or you know, like Right. There's so much better walled off to keep Hermione from committing suicide that I just really didn't believe it. So I felt like that whole thing of I wanna kill myself could have easily been avoided if you give her something to live for.

[00:26:17] Andrea: Mm-hmm. And so I felt like that would've been a compelling. Change in this character to give her something that she remembers, that she's like, I have to live for this and not even consider suicide. Because I don't think it really adds anything to the story to like read about all of the ways that she's thinking about killing herself.

[00:26:34] Andrea: But can't I, I think if you gave her a, a reason to live, which she does do in the, I think the prologue says like, you have to live. You have to live. Like, if she just had that resounding in her head, I think that would've been more compelling. 'cause I actually think if you really wanted to kill yourself, like you don't have all the same things holding you back, you, you, you could do it.

[00:26:56] Leah: I have to agree. 'cause even in manic manacled, [00:27:00] because the manacles themselves prevent her from hurting herself in any way, like compels her to stop, um, it just effectively walled off all of her options. Yeah. Where to your point, if you really wanted to, there are thousands of ways that you could do it.

[00:27:16] Leah: And she even. Eventually comes across some options and she just like hesitates long enough and then she gets, you know, stopped and it's like, okay. But yeah, as you're, as the reader, as she's walking through this, you know, castle of a manner, I'm like, you can't find anything. Like, not a thing. It just, it was just not very believable as, um, as a literary tool.

[00:27:38] Andrea: Yeah. The last point that I have here is what fucking Rock did? Murrow the high. Neck Romancer, climb out from under because it's just sort of mentioned that he popped up one day, which feels very odd to me.

[00:27:52] Leah: I actually have a theory about this. So they have, I don't know if this is where you are yet, so this is the downside of you being further ahead.

[00:27:59] Leah: So [00:28:00] potential spoiler. So potential spoiler. All of this is spoilers, please. Um, they have, when they talk about the war that previously happened, when, okay, what was the guy's name? Ugh, it was Luke's ancestor. What was his name? Do you know? Well, Apollo is his dad. Yeah, that's the only one that I really know.

[00:28:17] Leah: That's not Apollo. Anyways. Just like in Harry Potter or you know, manacled, there was like a war that happened. They defeated a necromancer, and then now they're kind of in the same position again. However, in this story, in Alchemized, the Necromancer is not named. So they don't actually know who the ne romancer that was defeated actually was.

[00:28:39] Leah: Oh, okay. So my theory is it's just the same guy. This guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's just back.

[00:28:44] Andrea: Part of the thing that makes this whole, where are they hard is that there is a lot of conversation about where Helena comes from this island. And so kind of like with Manacled where I [00:29:00] asked you what's happening in the real world, that's also, I, I'm struggling to understand, is this like Harry Potter where they're in like a magic world or this is what's happening on this entire planet, and if so, how does someone just pop up, you know what I mean?

[00:29:18] Andrea: At to this degree. And how do you have people who are undying and like, it just, I don't know why. I've been watching some TikTok initial impressions. People seem to get this magic system, and I feel like I have failed fucking necromancy 2 0 2.

[00:29:35] Leah: I have

[00:29:36] Andrea: no idea what's going on on this fucking thing. Like I, I have so many questions about, I, it's very hard for me to understand.

[00:29:42] Andrea: Yeah. Where if, I guess maybe I don't know what this is, like, it's maybe something in my brain where if I can't understand where we are physically, it's very hard for me to get behind a lot of these concepts.

[00:29:56] Leah: I, I did not have quite that [00:30:00] same struggle, so the at least, or maybe I shouldn't think that hard about it.

[00:30:03] Leah: Maybe I'm just like going along with the vibes, like, this is fine, but I didn't get the impression that. Like this, the magical society is somehow like having a same secret from everything else, like necromancy and resonance. And th these are just actually backup. In the beginning there was like, in the, one of the, you know, world building, you know, diatribes, diatribes, diatribes, they do have, um, a section where they talk about how resonance is, is something that pops up all, all around the world, but it's more concentrated, right?

[00:30:41] Leah: In palladia, 20% of people are born with it. So this is something that's common, but more common where they are. Right. It's not like a secret that they have to hide. Yeah. Alright, before we move on to the writer's desk, I wanna know what did work for you? So I'll give you a few for me that I [00:31:00] enjoyed. Okay. Um, I am actually really intrigued by the house.

[00:31:05] Leah: So the house seems sentient in a way. Really? Okay. Oh, I'm not getting any sentient vibes really. Okay. Okay. Do you remember when she first arrived and then it happened a couple times shortly after she arrived too, where all of a sudden there's like this groaning in the house and like a wind comes through like the house is breathing.

[00:31:24] Andrea: I do, but I didn't really attribute it to the house. I guess because, so part of the magic, I assume with alchemy is metal Uhhuh related. Uh, I haven't seen them manipulate really any metal besides Aurelia when she opens the door with her cane. Okay. To put Helena into it. That's I think the only thing that I've really seen with the manipulation of metal.

[00:31:51] Andrea: Okay. So I made an assumption that someone who moves metal is moving things. I didn't get the vibe that this was just the house doing [00:32:00] it. I assumed that was. Part of someone doing something like maybe Kane listening or Aurelia listening or something, something like that. I is, was my assumption I okay this, I like it better if it's a sentient house.

[00:32:15] Andrea: I think sentient fucking houses are cool and I like the sentient paintings, you know, I'm into that shit. But I did not get that sense

[00:32:22] Leah: personally. Okay. I, I don't actually think the house itself is sentient, but I think it comes across as feeling sentient. Okay, this is my theory, unproven, but if the house is somehow has some sort of emotional ties to somebody in it, it, you know, is most likely Cain.

[00:32:38] Leah: But honestly, it could also be Helena. We don't know what happened yet, beforehand. I think there are some, actually it couldn't be Helena because. In when Helena first arrives and they have like the whooshing, you know, that wind that goes through the house. Stroud and Helena are both like, what the fuck just happened?

[00:32:59] Leah: And Kane [00:33:00] and Aurelia didn't even notice. Yeah. So it couldn't have like, started happening when she got there. So I think it, it could somehow be tied to Kane's emotional state

[00:33:09] Andrea: also. It's iron and don't they all, isn't it like Captain Planet where you have a superpower? So they're either wind or water. So like these two are iron, they're Kane and Aurelia.

[00:33:21] Andrea: Yeah. And Helena is not. Right.

[00:33:23] Leah: She's, what is she? She is, she's multi-talented. Actually, they're gonna dive more into this as we go on. Um, but Kane and Aurelia have far more, you know, iron capabilities than, yeah. Than Helena does. So, okay. Um, so I love that. Um, I found the stasis tank terrifying actually. So in the very beginning, rather than being in the cell where we, she could, even though she couldn't see and she couldn't hear, she could move.

[00:33:53] Leah: The fact that she was trapped in a stasis tank and completely immobile, but still conscious [00:34:00] for it, was horrifying to me. That kind of claustrophobia made me ill, it made me sick to my stomach, just reading it. And there were a couple other ones like that too, like the, the manacles when she describes what they Yeah, when they put 'em in.

[00:34:17] Leah: Yeah. Well, when she describes what they feel like as, um, like her tendons and her bones, like scrape against them whenever she moves her hands. Ugh. I gagged. I gagged when I read that part. Or I mean, it was so effective. It was so good. But yeah, just, ugh. The horror factor was definitely ratcheted up. Like when Mandel's ribs are like splayed open and her guts are falling out.

[00:34:42] Leah: Yeah. Like very graphically. I was like, okay, so we are like leaning in. I still wouldn't like categorize this as a horror story, but anyways, some of those scenes were impactful. Yeah, they were memorable. They left a mark. They did. Um, we touched on this, but [00:35:00] I love eo. He's fabulous. I can't wait to learn more about him.

[00:35:04] Leah: Very effective. Um, and then I am also very intrigued about why Kane's throttles are different than other people's. Why they feel more alive than others. And a thro, a negro thro is a, is a dead person. Is a dead person that has been reanimated by a necromancer. Right. Yes. So obvious. I think. Yeah. We should do a whole section just unpacking what some of these definitions are.

[00:35:38] Leah: Like what the fuck is happening

[00:35:39] Andrea: here. Yeah. Uh, right. Anything work for you. I only like the bad guys. It's about's all that's working. All that I can say right now is I don't love most of it. I will be totally honest. Thanks. I am a upsetting, I am a struggle city human being right now reading this, [00:36:00] and I think most of it is what we're gonna talk about next.

[00:36:04] Andrea: Okay. In the writer's desk. So let's do it. Do it. I am struggling to read this book, so here's what I will say. The. The writing, the prose, the words, the sentences, they're all beautifully done. Mm-hmm. I don't, there's nothing wrong with any of them. It's well done. It just, to me, sounds like everything else that is currently on the market.

[00:36:28] Andrea: And I don't love the magic system enough to read something that sounds like I could, I could pick up any book and it kind of sounds like this in my opinion. And so I think that, I kind of mentioned this already, but, well, okay. I'll, I have, I have so many points about the way that this is written and the difference between Manacled and this manuscript, but.

[00:36:54] Andrea: I think that there is fundamentally one of two options [00:37:00] here. One, either this is the traditional publishing engine stripping Senline U of what was a completely unique voice and perspective in literature, in my opinion, or Senline. You very specifically wanted to write something that has a, wanted to show range.

[00:37:24] Andrea: You know, Helena is not Hermione and it's like, nope, this is a totally different narrative for a totally different person. And either way, I just like it so much less than Manacled is. What it boils down to for me is like. I just think it sounds too much like everything else, and I don't like the magic system enough, and I don't like the characters enough.

[00:37:49] Andrea: I would've stopped reading this if I had picked it up from a shelf. I would've stopped reading it at page 20. That's kind of my rule of thumb. If I don't love a char, at least one character in this book by 20 pages in, I'm not reading it [00:38:00] anymore. And if the magic system confuses me, I'm definitely not reading it.

[00:38:03] Andrea: If you had recommended it to me, I probably would've stopped at page 50 if I was not doing this. And I would've been like, sorry, Leah, finish it. I gave it a go. You know, if it's worth it, like fun, like after a, and like how much I have to put in before I start to feel something, but I, I, I would've stopped reading if I, yeah, because I just don't all of those things together.

[00:38:22] Andrea: Are just like, not an and I'm too slow of a reader and, and too busy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I just, like, time is precious and, um, so I, I would've stopped reading. This is unfortunately where I'm at.

[00:38:35] Leah: I would not have D nfd it. I, I do enjoy it. I can't, I can't say I enjoy it as much as I enjoyed Manacled.

[00:38:44] Leah: Um, but I would have continued to read. I like the magic system. It is complicated and it's complex, and I had to go back and read a couple sections, like did I get that right? But I, I am intrigued by the, the [00:39:00] nuanced complexity of the, of the alchemy. So I like that aspect. I do think, to your point, going through the traditional publishing system, whether it was send the news choice or the editor's choice did strip out some of the magic in their original writing style.

[00:39:18] Leah: It's still good. It's not, it's not the same. Level that I was hoping it would be.

[00:39:24] Andrea: And the biggest thing as I, I kind of mentioned it, which is I am a big character person. If I love a character, I don't give a fuck what you're doing. The meditation can be a hot mess. It can make no sense. I, I am a big, I need to understand what drives this character, what their voice is.

[00:39:43] Andrea: And I think my. Biggest issue so far is I have no idea who Helena is and I I, because she is not as obsessed with armchair psychology ing Cain as Hermione [00:40:00] was with Draco. I also totally don't understand Kane's motivations because I'm not seeing them through Hermione eyes.

[00:40:06] Andrea: And I wanna point out one very specific thing that is probably a component of manacled and M that most people would probably just go right past. But like there is, in both of these books, there's a lot of the same beats and moments and scenes. Mm-hmm. And in both books, the Hermione character, I'm just gonna say it like that, 'cause.

[00:40:29] Andrea: Hermione is easy for me to say, and I keep fucking up Helena. I think about it too much. But so the Hermione character goes into Draco's room, and when Hermione goes into Draco's room, I'm gonna read, I, I really hope this isn't boring. And that you find, because again, I don't think most readers would do this, but because I'm a writer, I pick things apart like this.

[00:40:50] Andrea: So hopefully it's interesting to someone. But so in manifold, here is the beginning of this passage, so stepping into the room. [00:41:00] This is Draco's room. Her money stepping into Draco's room. Okay. Stepping into the room. She took in every detail she could. New paragraph. It felt sterile. Now, if you go to a traditional editor, probably, and like I threw this through chat, GPT to make a point, but, so chat, GPT would edit that to be Hermione stepped into the room and let her eyes sweep across it, cataloging every detail, new paragraph, sterile, arguably more beautiful.

[00:41:27] Andrea: But it changes the explicit understanding of who Hermione is in this moment. So Hermione is extremely traumatized and saying that she stepped into the room is one very simple because that's all she can fucking manage.

[00:41:44] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:45] Andrea: And then she took in every detail she could. That's that's it. Mm-hmm. Like her eyes did not fucking sweep across the room, cataloging every detail.

[00:41:54] Andrea: She doesn't have the fucking capacity to do that motion. All [00:42:00] this girl can do is step into a room and look and go. It felt sterile. Will this feel sterile? You know what I mean? Like that's part of what I love about the Hermione voice tone. The words that are used are very kind of down home and it's just like, this is what this is.

[00:42:20] Andrea: This is all we can do. You know? And there's another moment in that same, that same passage where she describes the pillows as quote covered in too many tassels. Isn't that adorable? Like it's Come on, my cute little Hermione covered in too many tassels. What do you need all those fucking tassels for? Is what she's thinking.

[00:42:41] Andrea: But like an editor would probably say like. Throw pillows dripping with tassels. Like, no, that's not what her mind is thinking. She's not thinking, oh, look at those throw pillows dripping with tassels. No, she's thinking those 2020 tassels. You know, like it's just shit like that that like That's the vibe.

[00:42:58] Andrea: Yeah. That's in Manacled. [00:43:00] And I think Senline you for however they accomplished this, whether genius came and they were just a conduit to this story and this character Send Lynn's ability to tap into this voice that Hermione has is so compelling and so spot on for a thousand pages. Mm-hmm. And it's just not flowery beaut, though.

[00:43:28] Andrea: It might be beautiful prose. It just, this book doesn't feel like anyone's voice. It feels like. It feels, it feels like the machine of traditional publishing.

[00:43:43] Leah: I, I still feel, so I, yeah, I read a lot of books in this genre and I still think this book stands above the others in this genre. I still think it's exceptional.

[00:43:53] Leah: It is hard for me because I was, I am still so [00:44:00] loyal to manic gold. I, it affected me in such a profound way that yes, it, this book almost had no chance of like, reaching that level. But I would be curious, this book Alchemize has that same scene. Yeah. Could we do like a side by side comparison? Let's do it.

[00:44:20] Leah: Sure. Let's do it. Let's just read like, we could literally read the exact same sentence for both. Yeah. So page 72, if you

[00:44:28] Andrea: click Oh, you page it. 72. Yes. Um, all, so. Uh, and there's like more to this, uh, bit than, than what I, I read you, I only read you two sentences, but, uh, so one of the other things, so this is what it says in Manacled, she had assumed her room was bare and cold out of indifference, but perhaps it was simply the way Malfoy was.

[00:44:56] Andrea: There was a large bed, towering wardrobe, a desk and a [00:45:00] chair. Okay. This is how Helena describes Kate's room. Helena was surprised to find the room like hers. That is a different meaning. It's like very, you know. Two windows, a bed and wardrobe, but a desk and chair rather than an armchair. It could have belonged to an aesthetic.

[00:45:21] Andrea: Aesthetic. What, what is this?

[00:45:25] Leah: Oh, aesthetic. I actually, okay. I had to, I had to Google that. I had to Google that too. I was like, what is that? I had to Google like four different words so far. I'm like,

[00:45:32] Andrea: I don't even know what that means. I had to Google resonance. I was like, what the fuck is resonance? I don't even know what that is.

[00:45:37] Andrea: Um, but yeah, so, so the difference here is that she, the difference is that what Hermione does consistently, and this is just one example, she takes something like how this room is decorated and how it feels, and then she ascribes it back to Malfoy from a psychological [00:46:00] sense, right? Yeah. And Helena doesn't do that at all.

[00:46:02] Andrea: She is just. Painting the scene for us, it feels like she's painting the scene for us as readers, and it feels like Hermione is really just trying to figure the shit out for herself and we get to be brought along by our narrator.

[00:46:15] Leah: It feels like in manifold, Hermione is almost creating like. A complete dossier of Draco.

[00:46:22] Leah: Yeah, like a Pinterest board, right? Like

[00:46:25] Andrea: of like, yeah, that's, yeah.

[00:46:27] Leah: No, like one of those like

[00:46:28] Andrea: crazy boards. Like that's the pins and the, and the string. Like Yes. One of those big cork boards with all the red lines that draws

[00:46:34] Leah: Yes. Like the serial killer thing where, yes. And I do believe that Helena does this a little bit, like she's still trying to figure him out, but not in the same, not with the same intensity that Hermione was.

[00:46:48] Andrea: Yeah. And then, I mean, she goes into like the filigree on the desk and the fact that there's paper there and she kind of tries to, um, she's like a little, she's a little detective, so she's trying [00:47:00] to see if the paper had any like, etchings in it and stuff like that. And I just, I find it again, I just, I, I find this like so much less compelling.

[00:47:08] Andrea: I don't, I don't, I, and I guess that's part of it when, when I said that this, a lot of this book feels like it's written. To impress me as a reader almost. And I don't like, I don't like that I just tell me the story. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of the magic system to me feels too, like, look how smart it is.

[00:47:31] Andrea: Like I don't, I don't care that much. Like I just want a great character who makes interesting choices and has great dialogue. Like that's really what I read for. Um, and I, I don't, I'm not the dialogue, I don't have any thoughts on so far. I'm a meh on it, but I just, I, I, maybe it's like pedantic of me to want.

[00:47:51] Andrea: My narrator to explain to me what they perceive, what they perceive someone else's motivations to be like. Maybe this book is trying [00:48:00] to encourage me to think about that on my own, but I don't wanna think about it on my own. I want harmione's intake, you know what I mean? Like, I want Hermione impression of what this room means about Draco.

[00:48:10] Andrea: Where are you at right now? What, what would you say you think about this? Um, I don't wanna think about it, so I don't know. I, I, um, I, I just, I miss things like this and I will continue to read and hope I find more of it now that we're through a lot of the exposition on a magic system, I still don't understand.

[00:48:28] Andrea: Okay. Should we unpack the magic system a little bit? We can try. I mean, you can explain it to me. Go ahead. Why don't you explain the magic system to me like I'm five.

[00:48:39] Leah: Okay. What I understand about the magic system as it stands right now, so. Resonance feels kinda like the force, right? It's like the energy that the wielder can use and it can, based on how much resonance a person has, um, indicates like how strong their power is.

[00:48:59] Leah: [00:49:00] So like the force is strong with cane, so he has strong ance. Right? Okay. Okay. But their repertoire is like their brand of magic, right? It's the the what and the how they get to use their resonance, right? So the metallurgist can manipulate metal, the py romancer can manipulate fire, necromancers, manipulate the dead people can, and they reanimate them to create Neals.

[00:49:29] Leah: A Vivi answer can, um, manipulate living people. So, um, to, and it can be used either to heal them or to torture them. Or in Stroud's case, you know, paralyze freeze, you know, manipulate the human body in myriad of ways. And an anim is someone who can manipulate souls and memories. Okay? Okay. Transference is like, [00:50:00] it's basically legitimacy, right?

[00:50:02] Leah: So it's, it's going into someone's mind, receiving their memories, invading their thoughts, whereas transmutation is the process of actually changing a soul or memories and actually altering them. So what happened to Helena's mind, uh, was transmutation. She transmuted her own memories. And thoughts, thoughts and questions.

[00:50:30] Leah: Um,

[00:50:33] Andrea: you can, you can do whatever you want. You can either lose readers or be like, you're too stupid for this. It's fine. But I do think just like some analogy, right? Like talk about the repertoire as a quiver of arrows at some point early in this book so that I have something to connect this to. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:52] Andrea: Because mm-hmm. There is so much thrown at us that's never explained. Mm-hmm. Clearly, [00:51:00] and I am the kind of reader that I don't understand that word. And now I am totally lost. Like even the necro thralls and answers, I was like, when they started calling them the grays, I was like, thank God.

[00:51:12] Andrea: Like, I thank God I can understand that. And then they went back to the necro, t th or everyone was like, fuck me, now I have to like. Remember what this thing even is. I'm just totally like, I don't fucking care about this. I don't know. You need a touchstone, need a metaphor. Yes. Something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that's the, the, and like, if metal's not that important, I don't know why it's such a fixation in the early part of this book.

[00:51:34] Andrea: 'cause that's the other thing that was just confusing the fuck outta me is I was like, okay, so they're like, why do all these people who manipulate metal like, okay, the metal is super important. These people all manipulate metal, metal, metal. I'm not a metal.

[00:51:48] Andrea: And then, oh, I can like put something through your wrist and I can read your mind. What does that have to do with metal? Like what are we doing? What are we doing here? Like there's this fixation [00:52:00] on like gold and then there's this fixation on the religious components of this mm-hmm. With like quiescence, the god of quintessence.

[00:52:08] Andrea: And I'm like, what are we doing?

[00:52:11] Leah: What are we doing here? I think there's a lot of metaphor layered in for like the hierarchy of the world too. There are more precious metals and then there are more base metals, which also kind of dictate, I don't know, like not necessarily like your rank in society, but to an extent like yeah, your importance in society, um, and religion.

[00:52:36] Leah: I don't wanna unpack that in this part because it's, we need to go into a lot deeper in part two, but plays a significant role in how they control the populace and you know, who, you know, who has privilege and who, who doesn't. So I think some of that is layered in, but for someone just coming into this story, it is complex.

[00:52:56] Leah: So if you're not all, if you're not [00:53:00] already into it, then it feels like a lot of detail. I like it, but it's not for everybody. And you're not alone in being confused by the magic system.

[00:53:08] Andrea: Yeah. I'm very sensitive to X position and how much of it you focus on. It was my main point mm-hmm. From the very first episode that we did.

[00:53:20] Andrea: Like what a cheat to be able to just drop you Yeah. Into the mind of Hermione and have you immediately care about all the things. Yeah. And understand where she's at. And I, I very, I expected to not have that. Feeling here, but the amount of complexity i i for my taste. Yeah. I don't, I I was totally lost. I

[00:53:43] Leah: don't care about you enough to learn about your world yet.

[00:53:45] Andrea: Totally. And then there just is, there are so many elements thrown at you so quickly. Like, we didn't even talk about the fact that apparently your consciousness is in a little orb in the, like [00:54:00] in your sternum.

[00:54:00] Andrea: I, I was like, okay, like now we have that happening. And even like the Neals, I was like, so how do they know what to do? Do they have brains? Are they like robots? Like, I don't understand so much about what's going on and it all feels like. It. You know how Coco Chanel has that statement about how you put on all of your jewelry and then you take two pieces off and you're good to go?

[00:54:25] Andrea: I've never heard this. Okay. That's what she says. Happy to know. That's what I feel like about the magic system in this. I feel like you put on all your jewelry and you forgot to take two pieces off. Now it's just everything. Everything. And I don't need it all, and I certainly don't need it all in like the first 50 pages.

[00:54:39] Andrea: But I do like your descriptions here. It will help me now understand what's going on. I think. Um, we'll see. So the last thing I'll say as a, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of this right this minute. However, I also wasn't like a raving fan really, of Manacled in the first 50 pages either.

[00:54:59] Andrea: So I'm [00:55:00] leaving myself open to, maybe I'll like this, you asked a question in the Manacled episodes about how I thought the non-linear timeline was. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I think it works. It's fine. It's good. It does make it a little bit more complicated because you're telling me things happened like hair dying right away and all of that, and then you're telling me how it happened.

[00:55:22] Andrea: So I'm a little less invested in that. It's a little bit less interesting to me, but I do think that. In not a fanfic world. The other thing that's very hard about a main character who has had the last 19 months of their existence stripped from them, and therefore a lot of what has made her her in that 19 months is that if a character doesn't know who they are.

[00:55:48] Andrea: I can't really get to know them. Yeah. And that is the thing that I think doesn't work super well in this context where you have to get people emotionally [00:56:00] invested in a character. You have to get them into a brand new world. You have a complicated magic system. You're trying to help them understand you.

[00:56:06] Andrea: It is sort of stacking the deck against you as a storyteller in a, in a, in a pretty challenging way because your character doesn't even know who they are anymore. So like, now I'm lost on who they are and Hermione, you, you, you get a lot of these moments early where she is at least her, she's got all of her moxie.

[00:56:31] Andrea: Yeah. And she's trying real hard on all of these ways that I don't feel as connected to in what Helena is doing.

[00:56:38] Leah: Yeah.

[00:56:38] Andrea: I

[00:56:38] Leah: can see all that. I, I still say I still like the story more and I. I would continue reading if, even if I wasn't committed to, to finishing it. But I do think we get, we get more from Hermione in the first, you know, a hundred pages.

[00:56:56] Leah: Yeah. In than we get from Helena in the first a hundred pages. [00:57:00] Okay. Moving on. Alright, let's talk about dark marks and darker thoughts. Let's do it.

[00:57:06] Andrea: Okay. My first point I brought up before, but I think the bad guys are massively more interesting than they were in Manacled. I really like Mandel. This. Lady who had her insides torn out.

[00:57:21] Andrea: And she is the reason that Helena is in this predicament that she's in, in the stanis tank. She, they've got some bad blood, baby, they've got bad blood, I dunno. Um, but like they've got, they've got bad blood. And I, I secretly super hope that Helena is kind of a douche kind. Like there's a point of me that hopes that like, Mandel is like somewhat, not, not that this would ever be justified, this is insane torture to put someone through.

[00:57:52] Andrea: But I do hope that there's something that, that, again, not that it totally justifies it, but that there's a [00:58:00] reason that she did this, that we find out about that. It's like, oh damn. Elena, you shouldn't have done that. Like, that's what I, that's what I secretly hope.

[00:58:08] Leah: Okay. I don't see it going that way to be, to be very honest.

[00:58:11] Leah: So Mandel is the umbridge character. Oh, she is? Yeah. I don't see her having a redemptive arc in, in any way, but who knows? Maybe I'll be surprised.

[00:58:22] Andrea: Well, and you don't think that there's anything Helena did to, to like warrant this rage? Like there must be some reason Well, yeah. That she picked Helena out specifically to do this, to,

[00:58:35] Leah: well, I mean, if she knows that she's the one who destroyed the, the hospital or whatever that's going to happen at, I assuming we still have that plot point.

[00:58:42] Leah: Yeah. Um, that could be a reason. And also they do unpack this more in part two, but because of the way the hold fast and the whole resistance treats vim answers as like. Uh, [00:59:00] inherently corrupted at the soul level. Yeah. They, they feel like she's just a traitor to this side who actually glorifies vim answers and empowers them to, to use their magic or alchemy or whatever.

[00:59:15] Leah: Right. Their resonance, whatever.

[00:59:17] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:59:17] Leah: Um, so I think that there is a bitterness there, and we see that in both Mandel and in Stroud.

[00:59:25] Andrea: Yeah. Okay. And so my second just thought that I was having, I don't know if it's necessarily a dark mark or a dark thought necessarily, but I guess in terms of doing a whole different magic system, it's not like JK Rowling owns witches and wizards and the magic system in Harry Potter is like magic.

[00:59:54] Andrea: Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like did we really did like. Does this, and it, [01:00:00] it's just like categorically, I guess it reads a little bit more sci-fi almost to me. Like it's like it is trying to explain things more science-y sounding. Mm-hmm. Which is also some of the stuff I can't stand about sci-fi books when I'm reading them.

[01:00:22] Andrea: Um, so I don't know. Listen, I'm hard to please, but I feel like, I don't know, like why couldn't you just have kept it fucking magic?

[01:00:30] Leah: Oh, see, I am so intrigued by the alchemy. So disagree. That's fine. It's cool. What, what intrigues you about the alchemy? I like that it isn't just based on like. Magic, natural ability.

[01:00:45] Leah: Yeah. Like it's not just magic, like you have to be both. Um, you have to, you have to be smart, you have to work hard, you have to study, you have to work on both like your mental and physical capabilities. And she, um, the way she does it, [01:01:00] um, Helena is the way that she melds together multiple different, uh, modalities and practices.

[01:01:08] Leah: I find that interesting. 'cause Well, she hasn't done that yet for me.

[01:01:11] Andrea: Okay. Well stop. So I guess we'll wait and see. Okay.

[01:01:15] Leah: All right. Maybe it'll be really a Love it. I don't, I obviously don't. If you don't, if you don't even like it yet, you're probably not gonna love it. But yeah, you might. I don't dunno.

[01:01:27] Andrea: You might come

[01:01:27] Leah: around

[01:01:28] Andrea: a little bit.

[01:01:29] Leah: It's fine.

[01:01:30] Andrea: Um, and then this is, this last point is yours.

[01:01:35] Leah: Uh. I mean, I already kind of touched on this a bit, but Yeah. Like should be creepy in this story. Like they went hard into some of the horror aspects. Like not only with like the Neals basically zombies, right? Yeah. But the things that they have the negro throws do.

[01:01:55] Leah: Right? Like they brought one guy back and had him eat [01:02:00] his wife. Like that's horrible. Yeah. Like that's grotesque. Right? And they have just like, I dunno, eyeballs in their house to like watch people so that they can like see through the. Like the eyeballs that are just Yeah. Like planted throughout the house.

[01:02:15] Leah: I don't know. It is dark in, but you're not gonna go all the way to horror. I, I wouldn't categorize it as a horror story. Yeah. And I am not in any way a expert on horror genres. Genres, yeah. Um, I would categorize this as a dark gothic probably. You know what? Maybe this book just

[01:02:32] Andrea: isn't for me.

[01:02:33] Leah: Yeah. This just isn't your genre and it's

[01:02:35] Andrea: fine.

[01:02:36] Andrea: I think this is what we're coming to, yeah. Is like, it's just maybe not for me. However, I really, I would like to get to the love story. That was my, you know, I loved section two of a man called, so I, I'll keep going. Or maybe, do you think so? You know how at the end of the first act I was like, listen. I will break down for you everything that happens [01:03:00] between the chapters of seven and 25.

[01:03:02] Andrea: Mm-hmm. Or seven and 19 so that you don't have to read that and you just have to read this. Is there something like that that you can do for me? I'm not gonna do that for you. We're gonna read this together.

[01:03:12] Leah: Come

[01:03:12] Andrea: on.

[01:03:14] Leah: Be a friend. No, I, I was the ly against you. Fine. Yeah. You know, too long. Didn't read.

[01:03:25] Leah: Section anyway. No. Okay.

[01:03:28] Andrea: Well, to be continued, I'll continue to churn through this book and uh, the only thing that I, I don't really have a lot of predictions 'cause I'm only a hundred pages in, but, uh, I would say that the only prediction that I have is kind of something that I've mentioned already, which is that I do foresee Helena getting a better arc because she's already starting so silly in her infatuation for the hold fasts.

[01:03:57] Andrea: And I do like, I, I [01:04:00] like religious things. So if anything, I know you said like, what do you like about this book? I do. I like that the bad guys are better and I like that there are the religious. Overtones of this or undertones or tone tones dark. There are definitely tone loud, tone baritones. Uh, I, I like, I like the religious stuff, so I am depending on that to, to bring me through since I'm not like the biggest fan of, uh, the magic I would say, or the characters as of this point.

[01:04:31] Andrea: So gimme some sociopolitical shit to lap, to sink my teeth into at the very least.

[01:04:37] Leah: Uh, and that was something that I, I did predict the more complicated sociopolitical stuff. Yeah. Definitely had that. I actually didn't predict the, the religious, um, themes throughout, I can't even call 'em themes. They are like overt Yeah.

[01:04:53] Leah: Plot points. Um, I didn't expect them to be as strong as they were. Uh, so I'm [01:05:00] interested to see how that. It ultimately plays out in part three. I think it's gonna add actually a really interesting layer into how Draco, see, I'm still calling him Draco, sorry. In how Kane and Helena have to find their way back to each other after her memories are restored.

[01:05:23] Leah: But also, to your point, I think it will give her a stronger story arc. Yeah. At the end, I think. You know, you missed that in manifold. Do you feel like she didn't have a strong story arc and it didn't bother me. I was like, no. I kind of liked that who she was was who she was. Yeah. And already I'm like, Nope, I don't like the spot that she's starting from.

[01:05:44] Leah: So maybe you'll like that aspect better and I won't, I don't know. We'll see. Yeah.

[01:05:50] Andrea: Alright. Sounds good. As long as my Draco fill in picks up painting at the end, at the very least, we want him to have a hobby. I would, [01:06:00] I would be, I would be more pleased with that. And I think like that is as I was, 'cause I'm, I'm, I've finished editing now our fourth episode where we wrap up Manacled and we recorded that the day after I had finished Manacled.

[01:06:17] Andrea: And I hadn't yet processed all of my thoughts and feelings about it yet. Oh. Do you have more to unpack? I, well I, I was obviously very bothered by how Draco ends up in that story. Mm-hmm. And I think. Reading Alchemized now helps me understand that like, we spent 950 pages getting to know Draco through the eyes of Hermione as told to us by Senline.

[01:06:47] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:48] Andrea: And I personally, not everybody loved the man, but I fucked with him. Okay. I liked Draco. Malfoy. I, I felt for him. [01:07:00] And then I feel like it was just sort of like, then he lived and you are like, that's it. I want more than that for him. And I, yeah. And I wanted a lot more of it. And with Kane, I feel so far no emotional attachment to him at all.

[01:07:17] Andrea: I don't, whatever I, I would assume certainly throughout the second. Part of Alchemized, I will get to know him really well and we'll see. Um, but I, I think that's ultimately what it was, is that you spend, and again, I didn't really realize how much time you as a reader spend with Hermione explaining Draco to you.

[01:07:42] Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that it really gets you into his mind. Not into his mind, but like, like through her love of him. She makes you love him. Mm-hmm. To a large degree. Um, and then for it to just kind of be like, and then we had a kid who moved to [01:08:00] Japan is like, well, what happened to Draco, uh, Armani? You were like obsessed with him for 950 pages and then you just stopped.

[01:08:08] Andrea: I mean, I mean, she's still obsessed with him, like that didn't end. Yeah. But like he's, you, you get like no information and you say it in episode two, in episode four, like we don't actually know what they did with their time. Right. You don, I'm like. Right? Like, where are my details? Like that's kind of my point is like, why don't we know what you guys are doing?

[01:08:31] Andrea: It's so, it's just such a letdown. But I, I still, I disagree. I loved the ending, so. Well, I love the last page. I love the last chapter. I just don't like the, like from them escaping to the last chapter. Those, those are the chapters that I'm not a fan

[01:08:49] Leah: of. Alright, well as usual, we'll continue to disagree.

[01:08:56] Leah: Yeah. I'm gonna soldier on,

[01:08:58] Andrea: you got this girl through part [01:09:00] one of this book and we will see if I can make it through. And what are we gonna do if I can't?

[01:09:09] Leah: Well then, I mean life goes on. Are

[01:09:11] Andrea: you gonna just

[01:09:11] Leah: explain it to me?

[01:09:13] Andrea: I think we just come back

[01:09:14] Leah: and you just explain to me everything that happens, but then we won't have anything to disagree on.

[01:09:17] Leah: You'll just have to like agree with me on everything.

[01:09:21] Andrea: Yeah,

[01:09:24] Andrea: that'll be nice. I'll be agreeable. It's what I do best. Okay. We'll see. I publish these, so most of the time I get my YouTube one done first. I normally publish that on a Thursday, but you cannot stick me to a schedule. I'm a little a DD, so I'm won't do it when I feel like it. But then we also publish on Apple and Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:09:48] Andrea: So check us out, like us, subscribe to us. Hit that bell thing. Yeah, I don't know what people are supposed to do. You understand the platform. Hopefully

[01:09:56] Leah: you get the idea. It does make a huge difference in the success of [01:10:00] the podcast altogether. So we appreciate any sport.

[01:10:03] Andrea: Hopefully we'll see you on our stats.